The Kids' Side of the Story

DWB 10

[00:00:00] Welcome back to the Direct Well-Being Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Anders Apgar, and today I have two of three very special guests with me. Two out of three ain't bad. Meat Loaf said that to us. so I'm psyched to have Katie Apgar and Sean Apgar with me today.

Thanks, guys, for being here.

Yeah, of course. .

This episode is not intended to be an indictment of Mom and me, but, I want you guys to be as honest as possible. we really want to express and kind of have people get a feel for what it was like growing up in a two-physician household, for the children living in it.

Mom and I described what it was like trying to raise a family while maintaining two demanding OBGYN careers. now you guys get to tell your side of the story. So, you know, we sat behind microphones. We talked about what it was like to raise you guys, raise a family while we were both practicing full-scope OBGYN.

We talked about call, we talked about exhaustion, money, childcare, and missed events, and all the things we thought we did right, and probably a lot of the things that we didn't. The only problem with that conversation is that we only told [00:01:00] our side of the story, so today you guys get the microphones. And really the main feature of this is when you guys were little, when did you first understand that having two doctors as parents made our family different?

I guess it's kind of weird because, we've always lived in places with people who have had parents with kind of odd jobs. No one in our neighborhood I know has a job title that you hear very often. but I think definitely getting to school and getting an understanding of like the word doctor holds a lot of weight for a lot of people.

So when it was like, "Oh yeah, my parents are doctors," I think there was a wow factor to it that I didn't understand until I started, meeting peers that, they were really amazed at that fact.

No, I definitely agree with that. Like, where we live, we're outside of DC, so it's kind of like a fundamental part of the world, and people have very interesting jobs everywhere in the government.

I wouldn't say that we had parents with the most [00:02:00] interesting jobs or anything. So our parents didn't stick out in that respect. But I would agree that when we got to school and like started sharing that fact, it got a lot of attention that both our parents were doctors. Especially like in the young years we only knew that you guys, caught babies, so that was a lot of, discussion.

And then also I think there's a lot of interesting parts of our family, but, when I started to explain and realize that not everyone had a nanny is another thing that was like, "Okay, well this is not typical family structure." And then on top of that, you know, we have so much more intricacies of our family.

So again, like it's kind of hard to compare because not only are you guys both doctors, which is like a profound career, but we're surrounded by profound careers, and we have so many other interesting parts about our family that it's like that's not the only thing that sticks out about us.

Yeah. did it feel like everybody's parents kind of worked as much as we did, or did you see a separation between those things?

I would say yes as much, but people don't [00:03:00] understand the hours and, like, the off hours. And, I think the same thing about other people's careers. Like, I don't really understand people who work in finance, like how much they do when they're off the clock and versus when they're on the clock. But that's how I feel about people whose parents, for example, work in finance viewing my parents' jobs.

Like, they don't understand what it takes on and off the clock.

Yeah.

I mean, it's hard to compare again 'cause I've only had one family. But I knew you guys worked really hard, but I had a really good understanding 'cause I grew up with it, of like, okay, like they're just at work.

Like, that's just how it was for me. But I definitely feel like I saw other people's parents working just as hard too, just not in the same way, which I think made me realize it was different.

That's fair, and you bring up a really good point, Katie. What was normal in our house, either by workload or hours, what was normal in our house that you later realized maybe from sleepovers or just hanging out with your friends that you [00:04:00] later realized wasn't normal among your peers?

That's hard. you know, the phone calls probably. I think a lot of people's parents, you know, they probably deal with a lot more emails and meetings where it's just like, okay, they're off limits for the meeting time, and then they'll be out when they're done. Or, you know, they're just emailing people 24/7, and nobody really realizes it, but your career is very...

patient-facing, you're people-facing, so you actually have to speak to these people a lot. And some people didn't understand the urgency of the whole house had to, like, you know, kinda shut off if the phone rang when one of you guys was on call

Yeah.

I agree with that too, and like, again, you're people facing, patient facing, and like a lot of your job is very personal.

So for me, it was very different because like if you see a patient out in public or if you see a coworker out in public, it's a much different interaction than if, again, I'm just gonna use finance or government, like if one of those careers saw one of their coworkers or their family interact [00:05:00] with one of their coworkers or their clients, like it's a very different interaction because obviously HIPAA protection, and also it's not even just HIPAA, it's just a natural like human instinct to protect someone's privacy.

It's such a personal job, especially not just being a doctor, but the type of doctors you guys are. It's extremely personal, and there's kind of a barrier that makes it awkward in public that like it's hard to interact with other people and like it's an understanding that only our family has because you have to go about it a certain way, and it's different with every interaction.

You can't just assume everything is gonna be the same, and I feel like there's a lack of consistency with that that only me, Katie, and Lauren understand, and people whose parents work in other careers oftentimes have a hard time conceptualizing.

You bring up another good point is HIPAA, and I can remember Mom and I having a conversation with you guys, a very like frank conversation, I wanna call it stern, but it was one of those like serious like, "Hey, guys, we really need to talk to you about something," because those phone calls used to happen in the minivan.[00:06:00]

Remember those? Yeah ... so the question to both of you is do you remember at what age you first realized that you had to, abide by HIPAA? You had to comply with HIPAA laws. Do you remember how old you were?

I couldn't give you a number, but I know that it was towards the beginning of elementary school, probably first, second grade, because I remember people's parents approaching me, addressing me as the son of their doctor.

And I came home and would tell you guys that, and you would say, "Well, yes, but you can't reciprocate that. to some extent, we have to abide by HIPAA, and that's completely fair. It respects the patient's privacy. But it was definitely an interesting dynamic as like an outgoing kindergartner, as everyone is.

Sure. Katie, do you remember if you were still in a car seat when we talked to you about HIPAA?

Probably. Yeah. Most likely. I

remember you were still in a car seat when we tell that funny [00:07:00] story of how mom got a phone call and someone was in labor or labor and delivery had called us and said that there was somebody called mom specifically, but said there was somebody in labor and that she was there, and she just presented.

and when we got off the phone, you were like, "How many centimeters is she, Mom?" And you were still in a car seat. So I wanna kinda go with that too because it wasn't all terrible, at least I hope it wasn't. But Katie, do you remember the funniest memory you have growing up with two OBGYNs as parents?

I don't know. I don't know about funniest. I do have, like, a couple of odd stories. I mean, we went to the same elementary school for a lot of years, and with not a lot of kids. But when we went to middle school, there was a lot more kids, and so a lot more opportunity for people to know, my last name.

and there had been a couple of times where, some sixth, seventh, eighth grader would come up to me and be like, "Oh," like, "your mom is my mom's doctor," or like, "Your mom delivered me," or, "Your dad delivered me," or whatever. And I wouldn't know who they were, or they'd say it in [00:08:00] front of a, a lot of people who didn't know that my parents were doctors already, and then I would have to go through, explaining all of it, which was really cool.

But that, yeah, that definitely did happen a couple of times.

Katie, I wanna go a little bit deeper in that too. you're in middle school. You're trying not to stick out necessarily. You're just... You don't wanna be either weird or, you just don't wanna be different in those situations 'cause you're growing up.

I get it. How did that make you feel when they came up to you and they said, "Hey, your mom delivered me"?

I was really proud of you guys It didn't make me feel any type of weird or out of place or in any way. I am an introverted person, so it was weird to have, people who I didn't necessarily know coming up to me and talking to me, but I never felt any type of way about it.

I was always, you know, very proud to be like, "That's who you guys are." It's not like I went around the halls every single day saying that, but you know, if people came up to me and they were happy to tell me because for whatever reason their parent found out who I was and told their kid and then their kid brought it to me, I was always really happy to be like, "Yeah," like, "that's who my parents are.

They do really [00:09:00] cool things."

Awesome. And I know you're introverted, and I really appreciate you. You're really sweet to join us. I know this isn't your, this might not be your jam, but I appreciate you sharing your perspective. Sean, do you have any funny memory that, that comes up quickly to you?

I don't know how this one flies on air, but I was in high school, it was freshman year, and I was on the baseball team, and we were doing batting practice, and it was the same interaction.

Some kid came up to me. but it was actually the whole group of guys, and they were like, "Oh," like, "what do your parents do?" And one of them, who you guys, or I believe it was you, Dad, that you delivered came up to me and said that they were gynecologists. And I had to exit the conversation 'cause I didn't know how to approach that.

'Cause I can't really... Again, I can't get into that, 'cause I found out later that he, you delivered him. But from that moment I knew that's what it was, that you were his mom's doctor. But I didn't know how to approach that. And like, Again, it can't cross that line, so I was kinda just like laughing, and I was like, "Yeah," like, "they deliver babies."

I don't know, like, I [00:10:00] didn't know how to approach that situation. But it was definitely really awkward because also freshman boys, like, they don't know what an OBGYN is really and truly. So it was really awkward because it didn't sound too far-fetched for them.

Yeah. Well, you handled it with grace. I remember that comment and I...

clearly not something that, anybody other than a 13 or 14-year-old boy would get away with. But you did a good job handling it I wanna keep the attention on you for a second, Sean. With all the stuff that we've talked about, did medicine feel like another member of our family?

I mean, that's an interesting wording for it. I wouldn't say it was another member of our family because it didn't feel external. Like, another member sounds external, but it was an integral part of our family, for sure.

Like, it's not something that you can separate from our family, for sure.

Sure. It was present at the dinner table. It was present in the car. It was present basically everywhere.

Yeah. That, not necessarily present everywhere, but it's just something that's in our family. It's like our last name. Like, we don't talk about our last [00:11:00] name at the dinner table 'cause we all have the same last name, but, like, when we go out, we all present as the Apgars.

We are the Apgar medicine family, but we don't talk about it at our dinner table. You see what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, it's more prominent when we're around people who don't share that same characteristic with us. So I wouldn't say it was, like, an interruption to our family, but it's definitely something that is part of our family, for sure.

It didn't define us, but it was, at any moment, if one of us was on call, it could change the entire dynamic of the dinner table or the car ride or something like that.

Yeah, for sure, but I do think it did define us. Like, it is our family. Medicine is our family, It's kind of inseparable, so it's not like it took something away from our family. It's just, our family.

It's interesting that We talk about defining, 'cause nobody likes to be defined necessarily by their job. it's not who I am, it's what I do. So I wanna put this question now to both of you. Katie, I'll put this to you first, if you don't mind. when you kids are growing up, you know, "I wanna do what mom does.

I wanna do what dad does." How did you feel about whether or not you wanted to go into [00:12:00] medicine? I think i- if I remember correctly, I'm gonna lead you a little bit here, but I remember you going, "Absolutely not. I wanna see my children," You were just a little girl at that point, but mom remembers that, you saying that, and it was, like, one of those really impactful statements.

Yeah. I mean, I was really young when I said that, so I'm gonna say I take that back.

It's weird to like when every time that story is presented to me, 'cause I have no memory of that story, I don't agree with it. I don't know where it was coming from at the time. I don't understand why I said it, 'cause I definitely don't agree with it. but I don't know. I never felt like I knew that's what you guys did.

Like, I never defined you guys as only being medicine. Like, you guys were my parents, and you guys, did a lot of things. You coached me, you taught me things. You were a lot more than doctors to me. But I never found love in like the goriness of it, I think.

Mm-hmm.

I think I, I still have my own definition of medicine from like the outside world, despite like what we have inside our own family, and that just never interested me. So it never really [00:13:00] caught my eye to be in medicine, but it was definitely helpful that you guys were both doctors because it gave me like an insider point of view or it gave me the opportunity to like ask you guys 101 questions and kind of get honest answers back about it to really like gauge that.

I feel like that's a common thing for people to want to do early in life is, oh, you know, I wanna be a doctor. And I kind of got a step ahead of everybody of deciding to or not to be a doctor 'cause of you guys.

Sure. And It sounds like you're well on your way to doing your own healthcare career.

I mean, I'm studying psychology. I hope to be a clinical psychologist one day- Mm-hmm ... but we'll see where I go in the psychology field.

That's pretty awesome. Shawnie, how about you? did you grow up wanting to be a physician? and did we talk you out of it?

it's definitely the same idea as Katie's getting across. It's hard to talk about this kind of thing because anything we say in contrary to your career sounds like us demonizing our family. But it's not that way. But [00:14:00] contrary to what Katie said, I am studying pre-med, so I am looking to be a doctor.

going to med school and doing the whole nine yards. I'm not really sure what pathway. Everyone always asks immediately like, "Oh, med school, do you know what doctor you wanna be?" I don't really wanna be an OBGYN. It sounds like a cool path. I think it is a cool path, and I respect people who do it.

It's not super easy for men to do it nowadays, and I respect that choice by most women to choose to not have a male provider 'cause it is a very personal subject. However, it makes it hard for men to do it. But on the contrary, like if you look at from, the provider's perspective, it's an interesting career path because the balance of surgery, it's a balance of patient interaction, and it's a balance of, you know, hospital days where you do operations, you do deliveries.

So it's interesting. It's a really cool career path. However I do respect the choice that most women would prefer to have a female provider. So, I'm not looking to do that. However, I will enjoy my OB rotation when it comes around [00:15:00] in medical school. time will tell. I'm interested in surgery, I'm interested in hospital, I'm interested in, seeing patients, but not necessarily OB.

But yeah.

And you bring up a really good point. Katie said that a lot of little kids grow up, they wanna be a doctor, or they wanna be, you know, "I wanna be a doctor, I wanna be a firefighter or a policeman," or something like that. Policewoman. When you were growing up and you had those routine thoughts of I wanna be that type of service person, right?

Everybody, those are very honorable professions, all of them. Do you feel like you felt more like you wanted to be a doctor because of the environment you were in, or maybe less that you wanna be a doctor because of the environment you in?

It's hard 'cause I could give you an answer for both ways.

I definitely could say like, "Oh, like this is what both my parents do. Like, wouldn't it be so cool to do the same thing?" Or like, it's a really honorable profession, as you put it. and I always knew I wanted to help people, so why not be a doctor?

you're the highest level of help directly helping someone essentially. But you could also say, like, there were parts of your [00:16:00] job that we didn't love. we didn't like seeing you guys be on call just as much as you guys didn't like to be on call. There was a lot of schooling to that,

You know, I was a little kid. I'd never thought I wanted to stay in school. what it comes down to essentially to me is that I don't know if that necessarily weighed me more or less, and I think that can differ from person to person. Like, I think Sean could have 100% different answer than me, and I would respect it because that's just the reality of it.

it's what you make it to be. It's how it influences everybody differently. But for me it's, you know, I definitely got more opinions about being a doctor from you guys that I think other people don't get. Like, we could talk about different specialties of being a doctor, and you guys had insider knowledge about that 'cause you've literally done the rotation.

Like, you've literally been that doctor for a day or, a couple days or whatever. So I think that definitely, like, gave me information towards that decision per se that other people wouldn't have. a lot of people who have, [00:17:00] non-medicine parents

Their parents are gonna hear, "I wanna be a doctor," and they're gonna go, "Okay, that's great. You're gonna be a doctor," or, however they feel about a doctor as a whole. But they don't necessarily think about all the stuff that you guys already know about. So I think that definitely, like, was a really interesting thing towards me thinking about being a doctor.

But all that long-winded answer to say I wasn't necessarily pushed or not pushed towards it from you guys. I just more so got like a different opinion, a different view of the thought or the option of being a doctor.

And Sean, you were leaning a little bit more towards being a clinical physician.

So you probably heard a little bit more direct opinions. do you feel like you got mostly good stuff or mostly, like, you should avoid this... So the framework of this too is in the episode where we spoke to Dr. Ridgley Salter. He spoke very frankly about how he told his son Nick, he said, "Do not go into medicine.

Do not go into primary care," on a night that he recalls that he was having a tough time, you know, doing some pajama [00:18:00] time and computer work that you guys always see, you know, in the middle of the night. So did you feel like you got that, "Do not do this. by all means, don't do this"? What did you feel like?

I'm gonna start with the question you gave Katie, which is I don't feel like you guys being doctors necessarily... I could be completely wrong in saying this, but me personally, I feel like I wasn't swayed by you guys being doctors. I feel like it was just natural to me. I also feel this way because I've always heard my whole life that my mom wanted to be a doctor, and neither of her parents were doctors, and she just knew it from, you know, when she was young.

And I feel like that's more like me than it is, you know, me just being influenced by you guys' careers, because obviously Mom was not, her parents were not doctors and she's a doctor now. Right. But yeah, to get to that second question, I would say like, reiterate what I just said, but you guys never really influenced me to be a doctor.

So if it was any influence, it was probably a negative. Now, that's different than, encouragement. Like, once I [00:19:00] said I want to concretely be a doctor, and then I'm going to college, and I'm studying pre-medicine, like, you guys have been nothing but supportive. Correct. But for the most of my life, the rhetoric has been that, it's essentially an impossible career, and that I think I've heard more cons than pros, and I can definitely agree with, your previous interview.

I've heard many times, not just one incident, where it's been tough nights, and it's been, you know, I don't want anyone to have to ever do this ever again." Which is also extremely hard to hear because, you know, if there's no doctors, who's doing the healing? But I guess the idea behind that is to make reform in the medical system.

So if I were to say anything, I would say that, you guys probably did influence me from being a doctor, but clearly it didn't work. And I'm studying pre-medicine now, and that you guys are very supportive about it. But it was not a direct, requirement of being, you know, a physician's son, someone had to do it.

It's one of the three of [00:20:00] us had to be a physician.

Yeah. I appreciate the transparency, guys, and let it rip. you guys are doing a great job, and these are tough questions. It-they're designed to be tough questions. They're designed to be questions that are gonna really expose some of these things that you guys have been through.

So I appreciate you sharing all this stuff with me. I wanna go back to medicine kind of being part of our family or part of our definition. Katie, could you tell when we had had a bad day, even if we didn't come home and tell you exactly what happened?

the short answer is yes, but I think that's not uncommon for a family outside of medicine. That's not uncommon to have your parents come home and have had a bad day, whether it was because of work or because of what happened in between work or the traffic on the way home, whatever it was.

Like, kids pick up on that super quickly. Like that's just what Kids learn from behavior really, really fast, a lot faster than they'll learn from anything else. So I mean, it was obvious that, you know, we could tell that you guys had a bad day or you were frustrated about [00:21:00] something at work, just based on how you guys walked in the house even or how you guys said hello to us or how you didn't say hello to us.

I didn't need to ask you what happened to know that it was just a bad day. And that was okay. We all understood it. I've come home myself and had bad days and treated everybody like crap just as much aseverybody does it . Unfortunately, everybody does it, and there's not a lot you can do to avoid it in the moment 'cause you're so, like, within yourself about it.

And I think it definitely like to explain to a little kid what's happening, and you can't even really explain all of it, and this goes back to HIPAA, things like that. You know, but to the best extent when you guys would explain it, not only did it help you like kind of relax and kind of center yourselves, but it helped us have a better understanding of what was going on because all we saw was the frustration and we didn't necessarily always know or understand why.

But I definitely noticed a difference when, whenever you guys were okay to talk about it, you did talk about it, and you did help us get to an understanding. It [00:22:00] kind of helped get to a middle ground for everybody.

Yeah. I love hearing your perspective with your background in psych and what you're studying, you have this great perspective of what it was like as a child and what you picked up on.

Sean, this one's for you. do you remember us talking medicine at the dinner table?

Yeah. But I also encourage that discussion. Like, I've always been passionate about medicine, so I'm the first person to ask about, you know, not just how was your day, but what was your day. So like, you know, what did this patient do?

What was this delivery like? And I would, like, ask the details into you guys, but tell me like you can't, that's crossing a line at this point. But, this kind of feeds into what you asked Katie, which is like, I don't know if Katie and Lauren can relate to this, but I know I probed enough that now when I hear those same terminology used, like, okay, so I had a C-section today, and actually it was a stat C-section, and, like, the baby was doing terrible.

And like, when I hear these things, I can kind of gauge how bad the day was or how good the day was, how easy or hard it was, [00:23:00] which no day is, like, necessarily easy or hard. we can't really define it by that. But you know, when you hear those things over and over again, you start to, like, get an understanding, not necessarily like I could do a C-section right now, but I kind of understand the, like, mental capacity and like how physically draining it can be depending on the day.

So it kind of over the years, especially like you guys had a pretty rigid schedule, a pretty repetitive schedule, which was our family was always Monday was the office day, and it was always the hard office day, and then Tuesday was always the hospital day, and then Wednesday was mom's day off, and then Thursday was an office day, surgery day, and then Friday was your day off and mom's last office day.

And so you kind of get in those same cycles, and I agree with Katie, like probably everyone has a similar cycle or maybe they don't, I just don't know. But, you could kind of expect harder days on Tuesdays 'cause you're in the hospital. You could expect, potentially mood-swinging days on Thursdays because surgeries can go bad.

But yeah, I was definitely the one at the table that probed you guys about [00:24:00] questions.

Yeah. this is for both of you. Do you guys ever feel like we were physically home, but mentally still in the hospital? Katie, with your psych background, you could probably talk to this.

Yeah, for sure. But it wasn't all the time. It wasn't so constant. I think that it's easy to, like, pull up those memories just because, but it really wasn't all that often. you guys did a good job of explaining what things were early on so that we had an understanding.

You know, we were never scared of you guys, or we were never felt like you guys were not there. Just because, you were still thinking about work didn't mean we didn't still feel you there, and we also had our own things to do. Everybody brings home work.

Especially as I've been looking at the job market, there's not a lot that you can do out there that you're not gonna bring something home and have something to do at home. So I think just like the next kid, you know, we understood when Mom and Dad had work to do, we had to let them be and let them do their work, and I think you guys did a very good job of [00:25:00] understanding when we need you more than work needed you or having us understand that work needed you more than we needed you.

And, I think that's, like, a pretty typical thing for a lot of children. but there were definitely days and times here and there where it'd be like, "Okay, like, they've just got too much going on with work. Like, we have to let it be for right now, and we'll come back to this later."

thank you for that. That's good, really good feedback. We really tried hard to protect you from the stress of medicine, believe it or not. Do you think we were as good at protecting you from that stress as we tried to be, or did some leak through?

The way I'm interpreting this question, I didn't feel any, like, the weight of your job. Like, I didn't feel that if you guys... Not that there was a day where you would perform bad, but if something bad were to come to you, a hard case or something like that, that it would affect me. I mean, obviously anyone has empathy for their parents, so I would feel bad for you guys.

But, it wasn't like, I was waking up on Tuesday morning like, "Please dear [00:26:00] God, do not give my dad, you know, a stat section. Please, dear God, don't give my mom, you know, a thirty-weeker that's giving birth right now." It wasn't like I was feeling like I had to make up for your job or, like, console you guys strictly.

It was also helpful to a physician household to have you guys have each other. I mean, obviously until recently when you switched up your jobs, you were working in the same hospital as mom, so, you more often than not had each other before you had us. And so I can say it's definitely different now after you've switched jobs because-- not that, like, I feel relied on more, but that I can tell that you guys don't have the same understanding between each other.

But for the most of my life, you guys had the same job, the same title, the same work environment, the same everything, so you guys mostly had each other. So I didn't really feel that stress.

How about growing up? This is something mom and I talk about all the time behind closed doors, and we really tried to shield, this conversation from you guys.

But do either of you remember something [00:27:00] important, something that-- a core memory that one of us or both of us couldn't be there because of work?

Yeah. it was kind of an understanding. It wasn't necessarily the worst thing in the world if you guys couldn't both be there, or one of you couldn't be there, or neither of you could be there.

I think there's also a lot of very important events in our life coming up that we haven't crossed yet, and hopefully you guys will be able to attend those things. I mean, I wouldn't say there was anything like developmental that was, you know, necessarily the most important thing of my life that happened so far that one of you guys didn't attend.

but at the same time, there's always been an understanding. It's not like, "Oh yeah, of course Mom can come because Mom has an easier job," or, "Of course Dad can come because Dad has an easier job." But I want Mom to come because Mom can never come, or I want Dad to come because Dad can never come.

You guys, again, have, in my mind, have always had the same exact job. So it's not like one of you guys is prioritizing us more than the other because of work.

Yeah, I definitely agree with what Sean said. I remember times where it was [00:28:00] like, oh, like they can't come, like that sucks.

And I think as a little kid that like it felt like a much bigger deal. But when I look back on it now, it really wasn't. It was like a game here or, a practice there or whatever, and And I've lived with it my whole life, so I never knew any different. it would be different if halfway through my life this is what happened or, but I definitely agree with Sean, like it was never like your job got in the way of some of the most important moments and memories that I have in my entire life. We still took vacation as a family. You still were there for my graduation. You still were there for my first days of school for the most part.

Anything that I can remember being extremely significant, I can remember you guys being there. So I have memories of you guys not being there and under- having an understanding of you guys not being there, but it was never like the end of the world.

so like our dynamic with schools is very [00:29:00] interesting. , Our elementary school is like restricted to our small town. In our small town, we've talked about this people have very interesting jobs, very time awkward jobs, very official jobs, very honorable jobs.

when we went to elementary school, it wasn't uncommon for one mom to be at the game, one dad to be at the game, So there wasn't always everyone, both parents were there and supporting them. So it wasn't weird for one of our parents to be missing. And then when we go to middle school, we were still in a public middle school, and people had time-consuming jobs.

And so again, let's use the sports example There wasn't always two parents there, and it was not really until high school, because then we transferred to a private high school, where I saw a shift where it was like, okay, there was consistently the same parents there, whether it was the mom or the dad of a specific player, but I could tell you, you know, whose players...

It was also an interesting shift after COVID and people moved to virtual jobs and being able to schedule their own times by the day, which you guys obviously couldn't do. But I could tell you, like, [00:30:00] you know, John Smith, not on my team, but let's use John Smith. I could tell you, okay, his dad's gonna be at every single game because he's gonna schedule every meeting around every game.

You know, we didn't have that same thing. I would say that one of you guys made it to every single game. But It was an interesting inconsistency. Like I couldn't always say, "Okay, well dad's gonna be here today." I would kind of wait. One of you guys would show up. But it was also, we didn't really ask the question because we understood both sides, whether you could or couldn't be there.

But it was definitely an inconsistency that we had.

Yeah. And to be fair, Katie had two parents on her team that were astronauts. That's

true.

Wrapping up that kind of thought process, did you guys ever feel like you had to share your parents with medicine?

I think you've both done a great job of discussing what you came to accept. Okay, this is part of our lives, but the sharing is a little bit more difficult, especially among young kids. Katie, you know this stuff from your psych background, right? Sharing can be a really big issue.

So that's why that word is in this question. Did you feel like you had to [00:31:00] share us with medicine?

I think I don't look at it that way. I don't personify medicine at all. I think this goes back to kind of how we talked about it earlier. it's a descriptor to me that I think when you personify, or at least when I've personified it in the past, it's made it seem like this big, bad thing that I can blame and that I can whatever, when that's not the truth.

the truth is you are a doctor, but that's not your defining characteristic, you know? And I've always known that about you guys, and I think I've learned over time that personifying medicine and treating it as if it's taking up physical space in our lives never did anything necessarily beneficial 'cause it kinda just got in the way.

Because at the end of the day, it's a job, and, you know, not everybody has to love their jobs, but it's, you know, it's definitely a, emotionally consuming everything, however you wanna put it, job. So when you ask that question, it's n- difficult for me to [00:32:00] answer because I don't personify medicine.

Medicine's not a physical thing for me that takes up space in our family. So I never felt like I was sharing it with you guys. Now I always had an understanding of, you know, that your job required you to do certain things. It required you to have certain hours, and definitely exhausted you guys some days and...

But it also was a, a source of pride for you guys other days, you'd come home with these incredible stories or, you know, your patients would send you just gift baskets of things and whatever it was, just because how much they appreciated you. And I think that was always, like, super fun to look back on, that, like, for all the days that weren't so good, like, I also knew that there were really good days that did happen in between.

But yeah, trying to bring it back to the central question. Sharing? No. having an understanding that other people don't have? Yes. Accepting things about it? I [00:33:00] kind of am a 50/50 on that because I always had an understanding. it wasn't so much that I had to accept it. It was just that I understood it.

Other people would've have to accept it because they don't understand it. But I always had an understanding, so I never had to accept the things about medicine that I liked or didn't like. but yeah, It was there.

Yeah, I would agree with that completely.

I will say though, like, I didn't really answer this question about like, you know, how our family dynamic worked and like, you know, pajamas and doing work or like if ever could feel like medicine would just take you guys away. But going back to that question, 'cause it kind of feeds into my answer for this one I never felt that like you guys were always, you know, on call.

You were always on your job. You could never get free from your job. But there's always like an understanding that well now only mom does call and stuff like that, but, there's always an understanding with her still and with both of you guys when I was younger that like every [00:34:00] moment I don't take any moment for granted because it could turn into something that would need an emergency.

Even when you're not on call, like you need to answer something for your partner because that's what you do as a doctor. You support your other doctor. Like you- I wouldn't-- If my mom was in an emergency, I would want her partner to do the same thing for her. So I have an understanding there that's like I'm not always sharing you guys with medicine, but like there's an understanding that like it could take you away.

But it's not necessarily always a bad thing because, it does really make me value every moment. When you guys did both show to a game, it's like, wow, you didn't just have free time, you made the free time, right? So it's like you can choose to view it as like medicine's the worst thing ever and, you know, it, it took my parents away from me and-- or you could look at it like it really taught me how to be grateful for the small things.

And also it gave me so much. Like obviously, you guys were working [00:35:00] more than probably the average parent, and so we got a nanny and that, again, I talked about that with like that's kinda when I realized it was an odd family structure. But that was the best thing you guys could have ever done, and it expanded our family in so many ways, and it's why I'm majoring in Spanish, and it's why I have a passion for Spanish, and there's so much that came from that.

So it's not necessarily an evil thing that you guys dedicated a lot of your time to medicine, because there's so much that came from it that you can view it in a different light

I think just to tag on just a little bit to what Sean said social media kind of blew up as we grew up, which is something that was never, honestly, when I was a little kid, I don't remember social media being a thing, and then now that I've grown up, it's become this overarching, like, the thing in the world. I think that definitely, like, has skewed. I've heard you guys talk about it and talk about how, like, oh, you feel like just every parent is at every single game and you scroll through your own social media feeds and [00:36:00] you see this.

And, and we scroll through ours and when we see what parents are doing for their children. But I think the hardest part is that we don't see what people don't put out there. and so we always had an understanding that, of what your jobs meant and how much work you guys put in. But we never had an understanding of how hard other people were working because the reality was they weren't gonna post about that all the time.

because who wants to be all, just posting about how much life sucks? Like, that's not fun to be super-duper negative and whatever. and honestly, you don't have the time to post if you're working all the time. So I think as a little kid trying to navigate a world where

People get to pick and choose what other people see, it was easier for me to go, "Oh, well, you know, my parents just work all the time." But I think when you grow up and you start thinking about it and you start seeing other people's perspectives and, it was important that early on, like, I learned about how other people's lives were as much as I could [00:37:00] because the reality is medicine is unique and medicine's hours are unique, but the work ethic of medicine is not unique to only medicine.

I think a lot of people have that ... But people just forget. you just forget that people aren't posting. You can't see what people aren't posting. So it's easy to become, wrapped up. I've heard you guys say it multiple times about, I've said it, but you guys have talked about feeling like you're never there and feeling like everybody else is always there.

And I feel like when you feel like everybody else is always there, it can lead you to think, "Oh, I'm just never there," so I think going off what Sean said is, like, appreciating the small things because we understood what it took you to get there, and also because, you know, we're not screaming to the world every single time you step up to our games and you watch, all seven innings or nine innings or however many games, in our respective sports.

But yeah, I feel like definitely as we got older and social media got more prominent, it definitely created a issue on both sides for how we perceived your work ethic

Thanks, guys. I think that's really insightful. and I think [00:38:00] mom and I do suffer from that looking at social media and feeling like everybody else is always there for our kids.

So thank you for those perspectives. I wanna shift gears a little bit too. We talk a lot about Disney parents, and mom and I were very concerned there were times we used money because we do make good salaries, right? And we did have some discretionary income. Mom and I were worried that there was times that we used money to compensate for the fact that we weren't always there, or we felt like we weren't always there.

Do you ever feel like we bought things or vacations or experiences because of guilt about working?

It's really interesting for our family because, we do so much for so many people. I don't really wanna go into the details of our family, but I'm just gonna beat around it. So, like, you provide for your mother a lot more than a lot of people provide for anyone in their family. Mom is very generous with her parents.

They don't need as much help as your mother does, but she's very generous with her parents. We also have a nanny, and that's a financial choice, and not only do we have a nanny, but we provide for her, and we [00:39:00] provide for her family, and we provide for her family's family. And we do so much for so many people that by the time it kinda gets back to us, it's not like there's nothing left because obviously you guys are very generously paid.

But it's not like we are some filthy rich family that is full of pricks. Because of the way I've been raised and who I've been raised around, I'm very down... I like to call myself very down-to-earth, and, like, I understand. And, you know, even I attend a private university.

I went to a private high school. But even in both of those cases, like, it's such a diverse student population. Interestingly, at my high school more so, but even here, You can find people that will have you realize, just how much I have to be grateful for, not in a comparative way, but just a way to be grateful and that I shouldn't take anything for granted.

So I wouldn't necessarily say that you guys used money to make up for us because, again, we didn't have billions of dollars left over. But [00:40:00] at the same time, I'm happy that you didn't have to do that because I appreciate everything that we do have

Yeah, I definitely agree. I don't think it was like a guilt thing, it was just like an opportunity thing.

Like, we're so blessed to have you guys as physicians and, It's known for, you know, what it's known for, right? and the financial side is definitely a big side of it that it is known for. I don't think it was necessarily out of guilt, like, "Oh, just, you know, take my money and do whatever you want with it.

I'm so sorry, like, I'm never there for you." It was more so like the times that just we weren't around each other, like you guys got to be like, "Hey, Since you're out and about with your friends, or like for example, I drive eight hours home from college, and you guys have the opportunity to tell me, "Hey, we will split your gas with you.

You know, you can buy a tank on us. You're coming home to see us," or, "We would love for you to come see us at Easter. we'll pay for your plane ticket." That's the opportunity that people with parents who will work as hard as you guys don't, always have to give.

So I don't [00:41:00] necessarily think it's a guilt thing. I think for some families it definitely can be. 100% it can be a guilt thing, you just throw money at your kids 'cause you're never there for them. Or sometimes it's not a guilt thing, and it's just like, uh, you know, "I don't really care about you, but you can have all the money in the world.

That should make you happy, right?" It was just more so an opportunity thing. Like, you guys had the opportunity and had the blessing to give us money for things that parents wouldn't necessarily pay for all the time, and you took advantage of it. And I wouldn't say, like, so much so that we're super-duper spoiled.

I, I think there was a good moderation of that. But the opportunity was there. that usually doesn't present itself in a lot of other families, and we're super, super grateful and super, super blessed, especially as we grow up and as we see more of the world that doesn't grow up like us, doesn't live like us.

I think it creates a lot of gratuity in us about those opportunities that we have.

but also to add to what Katie said it's also, like, we never really expected that. So again, it's the way we've been raised. Like, we've always been, "I'm not gonna force [00:42:00] you guys to be thankful for the type of kids we are," but we've always been kids that have been grateful for what we have and not expecting more.

So it's not like every year we were like, "Let's go to Disney. Let's go to Disney," and you guys didn't bring us to Disney, "Okay, well you have to do it two times next year." Or, like, we never expected you guys to pay for things, and we always had our own, whether... I mean, you guys started, giving us allowances later in our life, but we would use that money rather than just taking your credit card and paying for everything.

And like, "Oh, yeah, my parents work a lot. Well, they deserve to give me this money." So it's kind of about how we approached it too. I'm sure there's, kids of doctors that you are friends with that have different situations where they're like, "I hate that my parents work so much. I'm gonna make them hate the fact that they work so much.

I'm gonna spend all their money." So it's kinda just the way we've approached it, too.

Yeah. And you guys are fabulous kids, and these are great perspectives. And I think what mom and I felt really good about is when we did have the opportunity, Katie, that was a great word to use. When we had the opportunity to take a vacation with you guys, [00:43:00] we went all out.

And so that's where the finances were. You know what? We're gonna use this. We're gonna use what we have resource-wise, and we're gonna fly everybody here, and We're gonna get in the front of the bus or front of the airplane or, you know, do some of the experiences that maybe we wouldn't have had time or money to do in a different situation.

but let me turn the question around. if you could have traded some of the things that we provided, some of the physical things, that we provided for more time with us, would you have? Would you have traded some of those cool things, with more time with us?

This is another difficult question because again, like we provide for so many people, it's not like we make huge purchases. Like the one thing that I'm gonna say the opposite of your question, I'm gonna answer the opposite of your question, but the one thing that I'm really grateful for that you guys' jobs provided for us is the house that we live in.

we have a big house that we always have full of people, whether related to us or not. We have a pool that people flood in the [00:44:00] summer and like it's something that came with, you know, the hard work of your job, but it's something I'm so grateful for. not to out you here, but the only thing that we really splurged on was like cars every single year.

So that was definitely something that if you asked me honestly right now I would say yes, I would rather have you buy a car every five years instead of every year, and I would rather go on two vacations every year than one vacation every year. Am I still grateful for what I have? Yes. But if you were gonna identify one thing that we buy too much of, it would probably be rotation of sports cars from you.

But that's just my honest perspective

I think for me it's hard to, , answer that question 'cause it's like how could I trade the education that I'm getting right now for more time with you guys? Like, that doesn't make sense. I'm supposed to be getting an education. That's what you're supposed to do.

You're supposed to grow up But it's hard, like I don't know Like Sean said, I love everything that we've grown up around and with, and it's because of [00:45:00] what you guys do that we have the ability to live where we live and live with who we live with and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know.

I don't think I would trade it all. I mean, it'd be great if I could have the best of both worlds. It'd be great if, you know, we could have all the money in the world and also all the time in the world. But that's not the reality, and the reality is you guys are doctors, and that's something that's, almost nobody is able to do.

It's a super hard profession. I take a lot of pride to be able to say that you guys are doctors, and I think you guys do too. So sure, I would trade some of the things. Like I could trade some things in the house right now for having more time with you guys. as a little kid, yes.

I think I would've been like, "Yeah, like, let me spend all the time in the world with mom and dad." And now I'm an older, more independent person who doesn't so much rely on that so, like, all the time, that I'm like, "It's okay that you guys work. Like It's okay." Like, at the end of the day, [00:46:00] it is okay that you guys work hard, 'cause we also will play hard.

' And there's also, like, an aspect I keep bringing it up, but I can just keep applying, is that your jobs don't necessarily always need to provide time for you parents and us kids. Bringing our nanny into our house and her daughter and the rest of that family, and the ability to have a million friends over to the house and all that kind of stuff.

I believe this should be true for every single, parent-child dynamic, is that the money coming from the parents shouldn't have to just benefit time between the parents and the children or just the parents. it sucks because, I worked just this summer and I'm like, "I don't wanna spend my money on anyone else."

But the reality of the matter is, you know, when you're a little kid you don't make money. So the ability for you guys to give us a life where we can, use some of your hard work and time to have a good time on our own, to explore relationships with a bigger family, a [00:47:00] unique family, it's something that not necessarily...

You know, we don't need time, you and I. you know, we didn't go to enough baseball games. We didn't do, longer vacations because you guys', time didn't allow it. But there's so much that your job gave us that's outside of a parent-child relationship. But we are on this podcast talking about parent-child relationships, so yeah.

it's not obvious, if it hasn't been obvious in your lifetimes, Time with you guys was was more valuable than money.

But was there anything about being a doctor's kid that you guys absolutely loved?

Yeah. The title- it's so easy . The title, the wow factor that we've talked about in this podcast. But I think that also goes back to, like, what I've talked about medicine not being a person to me. I am, you know, just the same way that you guys are more than just a doctor, I am more than just a doctor's kid.

Like, I'm your guys' kid, but that doesn't make me just a doctor's kid. I'm proud of so much more than you guys being a doctor, but it doesn't mean I'm not proud of your [00:48:00] guys' profession. But I definitely am proud of a lot more than just what you do right now. I'm proud of the work ethic that you guys have taught me, that I've watched you guys do.

You know, the intelligence, the importance on time and education and other things that have done really well for me in life. it's always really cool to say I'm a doctor's kid. it's really, really cool. it is really cool. there's not a single person I know who isn't amazed in some kind of way, by saying, by when I say that my parents are doctors, and they don't even have to know that you guys are both doctors. Sometimes they'll be like, "Oh yeah, your mom's a doctor?" And I'll be like, "Yeah." And I won't even say my dad's a doctor, and Then it's like their whole mind explodes when they hear that it's both of you guys. Yeah. I mean, I think there's so much about you guys to be proud of and to be happy about.

And even just outside of telling other people about who you guys are, I'm proud to be, your guys' daughter above all, and I think that's, like, the important part to [00:49:00] emphasize.

And I keep saying we're s- like, so unique as a family, but with the last name Apgar, it's, like, inescapable to be se- Like, it's always either, "Oh, is your mom a do-" Like, whenever I'm at home and I introduce myself, someone either says, "Oh, your mom's a doctor," or, "Your dad's a doctor," or, "Oh, are you related to Virginia Apgar?"

It's like, okay, yeah, like, at some point it's gonna get out that you guys are doctors because we have the last name Apgar. Yeah. So it's, again, it's unique about us. We are so unique.

No, it's been a joy watching you guys grow up, and we've said this obviously together when we're not doing podcasts and things like that.

But

Is there anything you understand about our careers now that you couldn't understand when you were younger, when you were very young?

I just like kind of developed a greater understanding. Yeah. It's not necessarily like, when I was 10, I didn't understand how time-consuming your job was, and now I'm 18 and I understand. It's more like, okay, well, when you guys started talking about like hysterectomies at the dinner table, I'm like, "Okay, I actually know what that is now."

Yeah. But It's more like the content of your job, [00:50:00] not so much your job.

Yeah. It's a very gradual thing that I think if you put me next to 10-year-old me and I think it would be a very different I'd be able to see a stark difference.

But I think it's been so gradual over my entire lifetime that it's like, it's hard for me to be like, "God, how much did I know or not know back then?" Yeah, I think I agree with Sean. I think I definitely understand, the intelligence, the very educational side more because I'm smarter than I was when I was 10.

You know, we can understand a lot more when you, procedurally, 'cause we kinda love to ask you guys those questions and, 'cause that really does fascinate us, and I think that it's so fun to be fascinated in what, you guys do. But I think we've always had a somewhat of a base understanding from a very young age that didn't necessarily change so much as we aged, but just developed into a deeper understanding because we gained the ability to, critically think about it a little bit more.

To be fair, you were really smart at 10, and you were really cute, too. this summarizes [00:51:00] the, kind of what I was trying to get at, which is really do you think medicine changed who Mom and Dad were as parents?

Kind of an impossible question because it, like we've said this repeatedly, inseparable for us. , I wouldn't want it any other way if that's kind of what this question's trying to get around. But, that's also coming from, you know, a pre-med student. So, I wouldn't want it any other way. I think it formed who I am, and I'm very proud of who I am as a person.

I'm very happy with the life that I've led and that I've been given, and I don't think it would have happened without medicine, and even in its highs and lows. So that's my answer.

Yeah. There was no me without you guys being doctors. But also, this is your job. This is not everything.

This is not an, all-encompassing part of you guys. Sure, I think any job can impact how a parent parents. A lawyer's kid is gonna have, a lot different understanding of the world [00:52:00] and how to, go about it than, a kid who's, you know, a finance kid or us as kids of, in medicine or, kids of parents in medicine.

Yeah. Education. I think any job or any area of the world that you spend most of your time in is gonna impact what you bring home and how you, parent your children. But I can't say I know any different 'cause I've never been parented by anybody different than two parents in medicine.

I agree with Sean. It's an impossible question. but I also agree that I wouldn't change it. This is all my life. This is all I've known. So why would I change what I've known if I like what I have? I think the obvious answer is, yeah, sure it has impacted who you are.

But who's to say that, someone listening right now is like, "Okay, screw it, then I'm not gonna be a doctor"? You know, what is your next profession? How is that gonna affect you being a parent? it's everything that you do in your life is gonna affect how you are as a parent because being a parent is an all-encompassing thing.

You know, I think it is. I think it should be. it can be for a lot of people. so yeah, everything that you do in your [00:53:00] life once you are a parent and you are parenting a child will affect how you parent the child. I think it flips. I think being a parent impacts how you are a doctor more so than being a doctor impacts how you are a parent.

I like that. That's really well said. All right.

I appreciate both the honesty and the vulnerability. You guys are doing a great job, and I know some of this stuff is not stuff that we wanted to share with the world, but there is a lot of people that are gonna benefit from this. back when you were young, Katie, you left me a voicemail that I still have on my phone, and you left me a voicemail 'cause I was stuck at the hospital.

Mom had you call me, and she said and I didn't answer 'cause I was in the middle of a delivery or something , and I got a voicemail that said, It's gonna be okay, Daddy. It's gonna be okay." And that leads me to this, which is if you could go back and talk to Dad when you were 10 years old, what would you want him to know?

Probably the same thing. That's still A saying that I have today. I say that all the time to myself and to other people. And then I [00:54:00] tell other people, I'm not just saying this to make you feel like you're not allowed to be not okay right now, but I always just remind myself that it's always gonna be okay.

I think this like, comes back to like talking to your kids and letting them have an understanding about it that, you know, the more I understood, the more I was able to like sympathize with youjust understand why you weren't there, why you were upset, or whatever it was.

But I don't know. I think I would still tell you that it was gonna be okay, and just to keep, talking about it and taking care of yourself and whatever

Thank you. Shawnee, how about you?

I'm a little bit too literal for this question because I wouldn't change anything. Like I said, I wouldn't change anything about the fact that you guys were doctors.

if I were to go back in time and I were to say something different and I would've changed I don't know. Like whenever I get to like changing what happened in the past, I always worry about what the future would turn out to be. Like what if I had sent you the voicemail, you opened it up while you were driving, you died in a car accident?

Like i- for me, I'm too literal for this, [00:55:00] so it's like I don't wanna change anything about the past, I just stay grateful for what's the present.

I love that. Gratitude's a huge thing, and we talk about it all the time here. we're getting toward the end here. Appreciate you guys very much. I know you're very busy and class is gonna start here in no time.

real couple of quick questions that we always ask. What do physician parents not talk about with their kids that they probably should?

you guys told us a lot of stuff, so I don't think you left much out

Okay. Katie, you spoke about this at the very beginning of the episode so I wanna bring this back to you. What's something physician parents don't realize that their kids notice?

I think like attitudes and behaviors are really obvious. You don't realize what it does to a kid to snap at them really fast. I think this can apply to anybody- Mm-hmm ... in the whole world, to be honest with you. But I think it's important that when you do snap at somebody or you are having a bad day, like it's like a hard thing for anybody to do.

but it's really important that you're aware of how you are feeling and how your day was like before you walk into the [00:56:00] house. Because how you react and how you act towards your kids, especially when they're really, really young, can have a really big impact on how they feel about you and how they treat you and how, whatever about, you as a parent.

But I think it's also important to know like, okay, you're gonna have those days, you're gonna have those times. No one's perfect. When have you ever heard of a person who's perfectly emotionally stable all the time and intact with all of their emotions? It's just not possible.

and I think being in a career with kind of a crazy job can make that harder on top of, you know, being a parent can make that hard. I think it's important just to have like a... I talk about emotional intelligence, like that's like, sounds like a, one of those social media words, but it's a real thing.

Like you can be book smart, but you can be emotionally, dumb. I think it's really important to be emotionally intelligent because that means that you're able to level with your children because those [00:57:00] behaviors and stuff like that they just have a big impact. And the, and you know, it's important that the times that you do snap or whatever, or the times that aren't perfect are then, reconciled by sitting them, down and having a genuine conversation about, "Hey, this is what's going on, and I am sorry for how I acted.

I shouldn't have acted that way. I have this, and this going on." And I think letting a child see that, there's more to the world around them than just, you know, their world, 'cause you know, kids are very wrapped up in their own world, and that's how it should be. They shouldn't have to worry about anybody else but themselves.

But when they understand other people other than themselves, they can have a better understanding of themselves and the world around them. So it's important to, be in tune with yourself for sure because then you can be in tune with your kid. But then also when you're not in tune with yourself, you help your kid have an understanding of what's going on.

Why is mom or dad or, you know, why is my parent not, acting right? why am I being treated this way when I feel like I haven't [00:58:00] done anything? Or whatever, whatever the accusation might be in the kid's head

Thank you. Sean this one's for you. What matters more to kids than parents sometimes realize?

That's a good question. I don't know, it's kind of the same thing that Katie was kind of saying, but It's kinda just everything. Like, kids really notice everything. I don't know if it's just us having, less than the average amount of time with our parents, and so every single minute that we're with our parents is hyper-analyzed.

But I think kids are a lot smarter, or at least I think... I'm not gonna say I'm was smarter than the average kid. What I'm gonna say is that I think you guys didn't necessarily understand how much I put together, even at a young age, and I think that applies to a lot of kids. I just think that my upbringing was a lot more intense and, high educational because you guys are doctors.

But I don't think you guys understood exactly how much [00:59:00] kids can put together, despite the fact that your job is so complex. So I'm not saying that I'm smarter than the average kid. I think that any average kid in my situation, my scenario with doctor parents would put it together, too. But just because your job is high caliber does not mean your kids are, not gonna understand it, not gonna put together every little thing about it.

So it's not, like, a threat, but you have the ability to be more direct than you think, because being indirect It doesn't confuse anyone. It's just you guys thinking that you're being sneaky with something that the kids are understanding the whole time. Mm. So I think definitely just be honest with your kids.

Don't try and hide conversations from them. It's a lot easier I mean, Katie talked a lot about, not hide your emotions from your kids, but, you know, shield them from what's dangerous for them. But at the same time, it's good to see healthy anger in front of you because you develop the skills to express the same way.

So I think it's more important than you think to express your feelings in a healthy way in front of your kids [01:00:00] because it teaches them that they can do that, their job is not the demon and that, it makes your kids feel like they're in the loop. It makes them feel like they're not, you know, being excluded by their own parents. It makes them feel like they're part of the family, and obviously they are. But sometimes, with doctor parents and you rely on each other, and you guys go up to your room and you talk about stuff that's more intricate about your jobs, and it's like, we wanna talk to you too.

I know I didn't understand what a hysterectomy was at 10, but, I wanna hear about it. Like, Everything's important, even if you have a high intense, high caliber, high educated job. So I think parents need to include their kids in these conversations more and find a way to do it better, because hiding your anger is not the solution

That's really great insight.

and we're coming to the end of the episode now, and I just want you guys to know I love you very much, and I know your time is super valuable. I love all of our family, and I know Mom, if she were willing to do a podcast too and sit next to me she would say the same thing. Thank you for your time.

There are thousands of [01:01:00] physicians listening to this podcast. Maybe hundreds, maybe tens, I don't know. But they have kids at home. They have little kids at home. Maybe they have big kids about to leave just like you guys. And I would submit to you that most of them are probably wondering whether they're getting this whole parenting thing right.

and some of the things you said about kids noticing everything is really stressful. If you get a 99% on this test, you could fail it for your kids. And you've summed this up very beautifully, Sean, in the last comments, and Kate, you've done a great job too with just the insight. But I'd like to close with, an action item for our parents or for maybe our parents to have a discussion with the kids.

Katie, you first, what's the one thing that you want parents listening to this podcast to hear from kids who actually live the experience?

I think perfection isn't the right word. You're, y- you're a parent, you're also human. At the end of the day, you are human and things happen and life happens. Life happens outside of being a parent that you can't control how being a [01:02:00] parent how that'll make you as a parent.

But like I said, just because you lashed out at your kids one day or whatever happened outside of work or even with your kids or whatever, it's important to have conversations about those types of things. It's important to notice when you weren't perfect. it's not so much that you need to be perfect 100% of the time, but it is important that you do notice when you aren't perfect, because if those things go unnoticed by you, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going unnoticed by your kid.

you don't need to, like, watch over yourself 24/7, but it's important to, stay in tune with yourself, and I think that can apply to being a friend too. Like, you should watch how you act around your friends, and when you aren't acting right, you should notice that.

I think that's important to being a human is noticing how you act around other people and how that can affect other people. So I would say perfection is not the right word. You can't be perfect. No one can be perfect. But it is important to notice and because a kid will notice just as much.

[01:03:00] And sometimes you forget to notice just because you've been living your life for how long, and a kid is gonna wanna notice all those things because they haven't been living their life that long. And everything and anything can be new to them or it can affect them. And so I think just noticing and being present in how you act and how they're acting and being able to be in tune with your emotions and your actions and because you're noticing and then being able to talk about it and fix it and not just talk about it, but also show it through your actions afterwards.

So that there's kind of an emotional understanding in the brain, but then also like a more physical understanding and, hey, look, like they can follow through with what they say

Thank you. That's the last word on the episode. I give you guys the last word because kids get the last word on this episode. So, that'll wrap it up. All right. Appreciate you guys.

Transcripts are lightly edited for readability and may contain minor errors.